Thomas Waite’s debut novel, Terminal Value, was critically praised and reached #1 in Contemporary Books, #1 in Contemporary Fiction, #1 Paid in the Kindle Store, and #1 in Kindle Store Suspense at Amazon. Lethal Code is his first in a series of cyber-thrillers.
Along with being an author, Waite is an advisor to technology companies in the online security, media, data analytics, cloud computing, mobile, social intelligence, and information technology businesses.
His non-fiction work has been published in a number of publications, including The New York Times and the Harvard Business Review.
Waite received his bachelor’s degree in English from the University of Wisconsin-Madison and was selected by the English Department to participate in an international study program at the University of Oxford.
He now lives and writes in Boston.
Thomas Waite Interview
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Order Lethal Code by Thomas Waite
America’s worst nightmare has come true: a “cyber–Pearl Harbor” attack by unknown terrorists has crippled the nation’s power grid—and brought the land of the free to its knees. As widespread panic and violence ravage the country, its ruthless captors issue their ultimatums…and vow an apocalyptic reckoning.
A defenseless nation scrambles to fight an invisible invasion. Chief among America’s last line of defense is Lana Elkins, head of a major cyber-security company—and former top NSA operative—who returns to her roots to spearhead the Agency’s frantic efforts to combat the enemy’s onslaught on its own terms.
While she and her superiors take action to infiltrate a terrorist hotbed overseas, much closer to home ruthless jihadists with a nuclear bomb hijack a busload of schoolchildren—including Lana’s daughter—and race toward a rendezvous with Armageddon in America’s greatest city.
With Lethal Code, Thomas Waite raises the international techno-thriller to dangerously exciting levels—introducing a valiant new action heroine, and initiating a series that brings a harrowing new edge of realism to sensational speculative fiction.
Thomas Waite Transcript
Tim Knox: Hi everyone, welcome in to Interviewing Authors. Tom Waite is my guest today. Now I’m not talking about Tom Waite, the singer. I’m talking about Tom Waite, the author. He is the author of Terminal Value, Lethal Code – the first in a series of cyber thrillers that he’s working on now.
Tom has an interesting story. He has a background in marketing, had written articles for The New York Times, The Harvard Business Review before finally settling in and writing his first book, the novel Terminal Value, a couple of years ago.
Interesting journey. He self-published the first book. He got an agent after that, got a publisher. His next book, Lethal Code, was traditionally published.
Tom has some really good insight for authors who are looking for agents, looking for publishers. You’re going to hear his story, how he did it – a lot of good insight, a little bit of warning, but a very interesting journey nonetheless.
So hang on. Tom Waite, author of Terminal Value, Lethal Code and more books to come on this edition of Interviewing Authors.
Tim Knox: Tom, welcome to the program.
Thomas Waite: Nice to be here, Tim. Thanks for having me.
Tim Knox: Well it’s our pleasure having you here. We have a lot to talk about with you. You’ve been a very busy young man as far as writing books and getting published but before we get into that, give us a little bit of background on Thomas Waite.
Thomas Waite: Well I’m probably not your typical author that you interview on this program, and by that I mean that while I have a degree in English Lit and earlier in my life wanted to be an author, I for financial reasons did not go on to the University of Iowa, which is what I intended to. Instead I entered the world of business.
I started working for an information technology management consulting firm and quickly discovered that there was money to be made if you could write and translate what other people couldn’t comprehend, that these very smart people were saying and trying to do. So long story short on that is I made a career out of and moved my way up through starting as a writer then communication then marketing and then I decided to become an entrepreneur. I started and sold my own company.
Along the way I wrote and published non-fiction but it was only recently, recently being 2012, that I published my first work of fiction, Terminal Value. Now I am, as you say too kindly not that young a man. I am working on a series of cyber thrillers, the first of which will be out in July, Lethal Code. The second I’ve written about half and should be out I’m hoping by the end of this year in December.
Tim Knox: Let’s go back to the beginning. I hear you say something that I have said myself and that I’ve heard from other authors – I wanted to be a writer but then the need to eat and to pay my rent got in the way. Talk about that a little bit. Did you always want to be a writer when you were younger? Was that your intention when you went to college?
Thomas Waite: Unlike many people I will not say that from the moment I remember being conscious I wanted to be an author. I actually wanted to be a pilot but that’s another story. I love to read and I like to tell stories. I grew up in a large family of six kids and had a very busy neighborhood. The neighbors had eight children so it was very active. We played a lot of games even as kids and made up stories in our heads and then acted them out. I think that fostered a lot of creativity.
For me, I think the turning point really came around roughly 7th grade or so and I give credit to the educational system for this. I started taking English classes and started developing not only a strong love of writing but writing papers and reading and critiquing novels. I still remember by the time I made it to high school distinctly reading works by Kurt Vonnegut and others, Hermann Hesse. We kind of started steering away from the classics and more towards what was then the contemporary and even somewhat controversial works. I really enjoyed that a lot.
So when I went to college I decided to get a degree in English Literature and frankly I owe an awful lot to a college professor who took me in under his arm. He was the teacher of creative writing and was very, very encouraging to me to pursue writing as a discipline. Upon graduation I disregard my political science professor who wanted me to go to law school and readied myself to apply to various schools but I had my eye on Iowa at the time, well known for its creative writing program.
Life intervened and I ended up returning… I went to Madison, Wisconsin to college and I returned back to Massachusetts where for financial reasons as I mentioned I was not able to find anything in the publishing world. I had submitted a short story to The New Yorker, which was rejected promptly and in retrospect appropriately. That forced me to find a job where I could use the skills that I had, namely the writing and analytical skills that come along with it when you do get a degree in English, to secure a job. Off I went on a business career.
Tim Knox: The time that you spent in business though you’re now putting that to good use as an author because you are writing the cyber thrillers. Wasn’t much of your career in that sort of industry? You were in the online security business I think and other things.
Thomas Waite: Well I wasn’t in the online security business. At the time there was no such thing, so to speak. I was always… every company I worked with my focus was in the world of technology. So the first job I took was with an information technology consulting firm. After that I switched firms and then I took a little bit of a detour to McKinsey & Company down in New York where I expanded beyond technology but still remained as a writer and communications person.
Then I moved on to marketing of technology. Then I had, and I think this speaks to the creative side, entrepreneurial itch that some people have and decided looking around me that this can’t be all that hard so I started my own company and that company was a business and market strategy consulting firm for tech companies.
During that time that’s when I really started to make a lot of contacts and do a lot of really deep work on the strategy side with these tech firms and in the end I actually sold my company to an internet company right in 1999, thank God.
Tim Knox: Lucky you.
Thomas Waite: Thank you. And you are correct, that did inform a lot – not only the cyber thrillers later but my debut novel, Terminal Value, really is based in large part on personal experiences that I had. It is fiction. I did not commit murder or anything like that but it really informed and helped me shape the book itself. I understood the process, the technologies, taking a company public, that sort of thing.
Tim Knox: Let’s talk a little bit about that. Give us a thumbnail of Terminal Value.
Thomas Waite: Well Terminal Value is essentially the story of a bunch of young entrepreneurs, very ambitious entrepreneurs, who have built a mobile computing company and are ecstatic when approached by a large New York based information technology firm that’s in the outsourcing and consulting space.
That company is going to go public so they are acquired by this company and they hold cash but more importantly stock as they go to the IPO. But then some very, very bad things happen and without giving away too much, everything unravels. There’s a murder involved and the hunt is on by the protagonist to figure out who committed the murder and why, and obviously it’s not as obvious I hope to the reader as it might sound.
Tim Knox: So it was more of a corporate thriller.
Thomas Waite: Yes. So the protagonist is Dylan. Dylan is one of the co-founders and he assembles a group of other co-founders – there are four – that starts at a party on Beacon Hill in Boston where they all decide they don’t want to go into the corporate world and unfortunately for him his best friend, who’s one of those that co-founds the company, is the fellow who’s murdered for what he knows. His name’s Tony, the friend. Dylan knows that but he doesn’t have any proof.
Tim Knox: Let’s talk a little bit about how you brought that book out. You had been doing the corporate thing. You had done some writing and had some articles published in The New York Times, The Harvard Business Review so you were an accomplished writer on that side of things. At what point did you say to yourself, “Hey, I can write a novel”?
Thomas Waite: It’s funny you say that. So I had in my head… people ask me all the time where did the notion of Terminal Value come from? It’s a very different process from the way I write today. I describe it as it was a movie in my head that just had to get out. I had been thinking about it and taking notes and moving to an outline, that sort of thing. When I started putting finger to keyboard – I don’t write longhand – it just flowed.
One thing I kind of discovered, because I hadn’t written in this genre before, was the characters kind of take control of the novel away from you once you’re sort of living inside their heads. I was really excited about that process. I blew out a long draft and then went about chopping it and sacrificing my baby, so to speak as often said, to try to tighten up the novel and make it something that I could be successful at publishing.
Tim Knox: How easy was that transition going from writing articles to actually writing fiction?
Thomas Waite: It was not that difficult because I had spent so much time in my life writing or editing, writing original or editing other copy. In fact I even ghost wrote a number of books, non-fiction books but my name was not on the byline until later when I had my own firm. That’s when I was published in The New York Times and Harvard Business Review.
In that respect it wasn’t that difficult and if anyone read the pieces that I wrote for The Harvard Business Review, they have a sort of fiction like quality because they’re case studies and that enabled me to write it in a different style, which I really liked. Having said that though, the discipline in writing a novel was certainly new to me and one that I really had to learn and adjust to.
Tim Knox: Let’s talk a little about character development because you mentioned the fact that the characters kind of took over and drove the story along. How was it to actually come up with characters and develop those characters? How deep did you go into their background?
Thomas Waite: So for Terminal Value, my debut novel, the characters were literally amalgams of people I knew. Not one character represents any individual person and the protagonist is not me, even though I just mentioned I founded my own firm. Certainly I utilized the folks I’ve met in business and used those as a starting point to describe characters. I also took liberties to paint the people that I’d encountered in business that I may have not felt had the warmest place in my heart about to kind of push the envelope as far as I could to make them nasty, evil characters that would be interesting to a reader.
Tim Knox: One of the funny things I hear a lot is the author always says, “Well the hero’s not based on me but the villain’s always based on someone I know.” It sounds like you had a really good time though writing this book.
Thomas Waite: I did. I was literally lost in it for the better part of a year. It was just something that every morning when I got up I wanted to attack and do. As I say, it was a movie that had to get out of my head and onto paper and it did flow pretty well. I did create an outline rather than a synopsis, which is the way I work today. In the end, you know, I didn’t follow that outline. That was one lesson learned.
Tim Knox: Once you finished the book, let’s talk a little about how you looked at publishing it. Did you look at going the traditional route? Did you look for an agent and a publisher?
Thomas Waite: I did.
Tim Knox: How fun was that process?
Thomas Waite: It was educational.
Tim Knox: There you go. You’re so tactical.
Thomas Waite: I’ll tell you a quick aside in a moment but yes I did decide that I needed to go the traditional route. Everyone I talked to said you need an agent to get to a publisher. You’ll never get to a publisher directly. I started with agents I knew from my non-fiction world, including one that had worked with me on three New York Times bestsellers, again business books in the non-fiction world, and expanded from there through leveraging my network and getting introductions.
Long story short, it failed. I didn’t have one person offer to be my agent. Now the side note I was going to mention to you, which I think is fine for people to know, is there was one agent who declined and I was sort of surprised in the way they declined. I won’t name them. So I got on the phone and I’m sure other authors do this as well to learn more about why you’re being rejected. Understanding why is useful and instructive. A little ways into the conversation I had a suspicion that this agent actually hadn’t even read the manuscript so I asked a trick question about the ending and the response gave away immediately that this person actually had not read the manuscript. That was disappointing.
Tim Knox: Did you call them on that?
Thomas Waite: I did not. I probably should have but I did not. I was new in this field and didn’t want to burn any bridges.
Tim Knox: What was the thing that prompted you to call this agent? I don’t think most authors would even do that. We just take the rejection letter and we tape it to our wall and glare at it.
Thomas Waite: It was someone that I had met and worked with previously who repped people both in the non-fiction and fiction world so I felt comfortable picking up the phone.
Tim Knox: What were your thoughts when you figured out that he hadn’t even read the book?
Thomas Waite: Well I didn’t say he or she but honestly I was quite deflated at the time I remember and I think that marked a turning point. There were a few other times I had sent things out after that but it kind of, for me, turned me towards the self-publishing route. I think that may have been a defining moment.
Tim Knox: Which has worked out wonderfully because you have successfully self-published it but let’s talk about that journey really quickly. When you decided to do the self-publish route did you know what to do? Did you have to research? How did you go about that?
Thomas Waite: I had to research. I was very fortunate to talk to some other folks that I knew here in the Boston area who either had published or had worked in the editing area and gave me names of folks who could guide me. In an essence I ended up hiring a consultant of sorts who educated me and watched me through the process and then through his connections introduced me to the key components, namely who’s going to design your cover, the proofreading element and then in my case the print on demand and the eBook side.
Tim Knox: Did you consider that money well spent for that help?
Thomas Waite: Interesting you ask that. So on my website I wrote a piece about this on my blog. I would say some of the money was well spent but what I discovered, and I don’t mean to sound arrogant at all about this, but what I discovered was during this process I actually felt like I was learning and understanding particularly on the production and marketing end of self-publishing right alongside these folks who were supposed experts. That’s how it felt. Now I have a background in marketing so perhaps that makes it a little different for me personally but, yeah, so some of it was well spent and some of it wasn’t.
I think certainly the basics, having it well edited and quite obviously setting up the distribution, the design… I actually designed the cover myself but with the help of a designer. Those are all key. I think where the money may not have been well spent would be on the marketing and promotion side.
Tim Knox: The book was self-published on Kindle. Is that correct? Or CreateSpace?
Thomas Waite: Actually I used INscribe Digital for the eBook and Lightning Source did the print on demand. I did it through Ingram so that it would be available.
Tim Knox: So the book, Terminal Value, let’s talk a little about okay the book is there. You’ve got it on the digital platforms. Did it immediately take off?
Thomas Waite: Absolutely not, no.
Tim Knox: Talk a little bit about that.
Thomas Waite: So it was officially published in March of 2012. I did a lot of marketing activities at the direction of these folks we discussed earlier and their expertise. I leveraged my own network. By the way, as a self-published author and probably even as an author published by a traditional publisher – it’s hard to track sales in anywhere close to real time. In any event I can look back at the sales now and look at the patterns.
What happened was not a lot but somehow the book reached a tipping point. The best I can say about that is a couple things happened. One was that on Amazon in particular I had reviews that started climbing really quickly. So today it’s about 145 I think but at that time it was probably about 70 or 80. In any event, that would be December. Amazon has, as you may be aware, the Kindle Daily Deal and they selected Terminal Value as a Daily Deal item. That really was the tipping point and drove visibility for the book. The deal lasts only one day but I will tell you that that just created a lot of buzz I think in the marketplace and that’s when the book really started to take off.
Tim Knox: How did you go about getting all those reviews early on? Was that a result of your marketing efforts?
Thomas Waite: It was a combination of my efforts. So I sent out, much like a traditional publisher, my preview copies to a selection of people I knew and I asked them that if they liked the book would they please provide a comment and if not that was fine too. Then I think through the social networks that I’m in – Facebook, LinkedIn because of the subject matter for me was valuable because it’s a corporate thriller, and Twitter. I just started to spread the word. It’s kind of one of those situations where once you gain steam you start to see the results happen.
Tim Knox: What was that feeling like to actually see the book being sold and reviewed?
Thomas Waite: It was great. It was… the timing was awkward. I happened to be visiting family in Canada, in Ottawa. My brother lives there and this happened just before Christmas. Because of my marketing background I knew that when lightning strikes you better take advantage. So lightning struck right then and they couldn’t understand why I was holed away begging them to use their computer while I tried to spread the word about the fact that my novel had reached number one at Amazon. When you do that of course through social media people say, “Well that’s interesting. I guess I should take a look at it.”
Tim Knox: I think what you described there I’ve heard that over and over and over, especially where the tipping point becomes where you have enough reviews or enough self-generated sales that Amazon notices you. They’ll put you on the Daily Deals and from there the audience just builds. There’s no set way to do it but I have heard that pattern before.
Thomas Waite: Yeah I have as well. I think you’re right. They’re famous for their algorithms and I think they look at a combination of things. Obviously they can see what’s selling through their channels but also they are tracking number of reviews and your rating. I was at I think 4.2 out of 5 stars. I think they take all of that into account and it’s in a mutual interest for both the author and for Amazon to get behind a book if it can be profitable to both parties.
Tim Knox: It’s almost like Amazon is a stock exchange and the author is kind of a stock.
Thomas Waite: Does that make a Kindle Daily Deal a flash trade?
Tim Knox: I think that’s a day trade. So you started gaining traction on Kindle and you started getting sales. You started to attract the attention of an agent then. Is that right?
Thomas Waite: Yes. Well what happened was I had already set to work on the idea of creating a series. Terminal Value is a standalone book. Lethal Code is the first of a series of cyber thrillers, as opposed to let’s say a corporate technology thriller.
Tim Knox: Were you already working on that one?
Thomas Waite: I was. In fact I had the manuscript nearly done for Lethal Code and what happened was quite simply I just rung my network again. An editor that I know who has worked with published authors happened to know of an agent and he asked a favor through an author if the agent would consider my novel. I think the reason was that even though this agent who’s now my agent, Howard Marim, was not taking on new authors. The feeling was that this subject matter that I was writing about was so timely, and this was even before Edward Snowden et cetera, that it might be very appealing and very compelling.
So he agreed. Howard agreed to review the manuscript and I completely recall sending it to him on a Friday and getting the message on Monday that he was going to take me on, which was a delight obviously.
Tim Knox: That book is Lethal Code. What’s the plot there?
Thomas Waite: Basically Lethal Code is a shocking story about a massive and anonymous cyber-attack on the US and it really focuses on the men, women and children who fight back against what I like to call the invisible invasion, the non-kinetic war that’s being raged against the US. So it’s very different and I spent a lot of time thinking about, carving out this sort of subgenre for myself, the cyber thriller genre, and did a ton of research and reading a lot of works like Cyber War, the non-fiction book by Richard Clarke, a lot of NSA DoD stuff online and others.
Tim Knox: What really attracted you to this genre?
Thomas Waite: I was curious and intrigued. Because of my technology background I just found this subject matter to be enormously interesting. I both like to read and hopefully I am writing novels that both entertain and educate the reader. I always enjoy reading a book whether it was Michael Crichton and understanding about viruses or medicine or all those things. I always enjoy reading books that teach me something at the same time as they’re entertaining me.
I just thought this was an area that most people knew just the periphery of what’s actually going on today and decided that it was a very attractive area to write in. It matched my career basically and even today I’m on the boards of a few tech firms and still can do a little bit of advisory work with those to keep myself current and fresh. Obviously I talk to people in the industry to make sure I’m writing correctly in addition to the research.
I just personally felt it was an unexplored space and I think my business and marketing and entrepreneur background – I also saw an opportunity, in other words a hole in the market that had yet to be filled.
Tim Knox: And that’s kind of a natural fit with your background.
Thomas Waite: Right.
Tim Knox: You got the agent on a Monday. What was the process then? Did he take it back to the publisher that had referred you to him or did he take it out to the market as a whole or what?
Thomas Waite: No, so he was referred by actually a freelance editor who had done some work for one of his authors, so that was the connection. There was no publisher at that point. Howard was very good at not just taking me on but obviously had taken a lot of notes and gave me some quite good feedback on what he thought could be done to the manuscript to improve it. So I took that into account, not all of it but much of it, and did another rewrite and resubmitted it to him and that’s when he put it out to bid essentially amongst various publishing houses. In the end 47North was the one that we decided to go with.
Tim Knox: Fantastic. When you had to do the rewrites, and I always love to ask this question, how much do you hate rewrites?
Thomas Waite: I don’t think any author would say they love rewrites. I don’t like rewrites but I don’t mind them if I in my heart believe they’re going to improve my work. I think, speaking to aspiring authors out there, when you ask for feedback you should be careful what you wish for.
Tim Knox: You might get it, yeah.
Thomas Waite: You will get it and the problem is you’ll get diametrically opposing views on certain things. I remember with my first novel one person saying you need to move to first person and I just laughed because, okay, you could do that but there was no real rationale for doing that. My view therefore is that it’s a mixed bag. If you get good feedback you learn from it and it’s like criticism. I think a lot of people are afraid of criticism but I think you can learn from criticism and it really advances your writing and the quality of your material.
But you have to only absorb and respond to that criticism that rings true for you because in the end you have to make the final decisions about what to cut and what not to cut and what to change and what not to change. Obviously any novelist is going to tell you a novel is never done. Sooner or later you just finally say, okay, it’s time to go.
Tim Knox: Now the publisher was 47North?
Thomas Waite: Yes.
Tim Knox: What’s that been like working with them?
Thomas Waite: 47North, they’ve been very good.
Tim Knox: Were there rewrites with them?
Thomas Waite: Well the acquiring editor had some feedback that I thought was actually quite good and then they had a copy editor do some work, which was pretty straightforward and then the proofreader actually found some things that turned out to be more value to me than to the copy editor, which I found interesting. In any event, they’ve been good. They’re a machine so to speak. They have a marketing team that I’ve had regular calls with and they’re very excited about the book, very enthusiastic about the promotion plan they have in mind for it. So it’s been a good process.
Tim Knox: The book is coming out July 22nd. Is that correct?
Thomas Waite: As an eBook, yes.
Tim Knox: Let’s talk a little on the marketing side. You are an old marketer but I think every author that I’ve talked to so far, they were a little surprised at least initially at the amount of marketing that they had to do. When the book comes out I know you’re not going to rely on just a publisher. You’re probably going to have your own marketing machine going as well, right?
Thomas Waite: Yes. In fact it’s well under way as we speak. I have on my own produced bound advanced copies that I’m distributing to some key individuals. I’m also getting locked eBooks that I’ll be distributing to other key individuals. At the same time I’ve been working hard to increase my social media platform. What that means is I’m redoing my website and should be launched I hope in time for the book. That’s a different conversation.
I have developed a much larger Twitter following and substantially increased my Facebook presence and moved my LinkedIn profile to be more firmly oriented as a writer of fiction and developed connections with people in and around that industry. If you could have taken a snapshot of my LinkedIn profile two years ago versus today it would look completely different.
Tim Knox: I think you and I actually met on Twitter so it must be working to some degree.
Thomas Waite: That’s true. I saw you had interviewed Joe Finder.
Tim Knox: What a great interview and great guy too.
Thomas Waite: Yeah, he is a great guy.
Tim Knox: Is he going to give you a review for your book, you think? Would you like me to ask him for you?
Thomas Waite: Yes that’d be great, if you could. I’m actually just starting his new book, Suspicion. I was kindly invited to his book launch party a few weeks back and it’s been sitting on my bedside table because I’ve been busy with things we’re talking about. Last night in fact I just started it and it’s quite good so I’m already sucked in.
Tim Knox: Yeah, he’s amazing. In the minute or two that we’ve got left let’s get some advice for the audience out there, the authors that are wanting to do what you have done. What’s your best advice to these folks?
Thomas Waite: Well I come at this like an entrepreneur. So when people approach me and say they’ve always wanted to have their own business, it’s not unlike people coming to me and saying they’ve always wanted to write a novel in my mind, in my perspective. So I always say to them, look, there’s a lot that’s been written about what you should do whether on the entrepreneurial side – you need a great business plan and proper financing and understand your markets and competition, et cetera. Or on the novel side – understand all the things we’ve talked about in terms of if you do self-publish what it’s going to involve or if you do try to approach an agent, what the chances are and how difficult that is.
I say to both parties, entrepreneurs and writers, my best advice is you have to just make one simple decision. Are you willing to give it a go, a real go? In the case of a business I say to them are you willing to go a year without a job and maybe no income and see if you can make this thing take off? You should know after a year if it’s going to be successful or not.
For writers I say, and I think other authors say pretty much the same thing, write the book. Don’t get caught up in all the other things surrounding the book because at the end of the day all that really matters is writing the very best book that you can. Focus on that. Don’t think about titles or covers or publishers or agents. Just write a really good book, whatever genre you choose to write in. Be open to criticism. Invite criticism. Welcome criticism. Don’t be thin skinned about it. View it as a learning experience but at the same time be true to yourself. You know what you want your book to be and you need to effectively screen out anything that would take you off track and diminish the power of your book.
Tim Knox: Thomas Waite, the author of Terminal Value and the new book, Lethal Code coming out July 22nd. You’re already working on the third book?
Thomas Waite: I am, yes.
Tim Knox: That’s going to be the second in the series.
Thomas Waite: It is.
Tim Knox: Where can folks find more information about you?
Thomas Waite: ThomasWaite.com or on Twitter I’m @ThomasJWaite are probably the two best places. I’m also on Facebook, ThomasWaiteAuthor.
Tim Knox: Very good. It’s been a pleasure. Good luck with the book and we’ll have to get you back on and hear more.
Tom Waite: Thanks for having me.